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Stranded!!!


Frogware

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Well today I needed to run to the Post office and then do a couple errands. So I started up Rita1 and proceeded to go to the post office, everything was good and running great. Got to the post office parked and shut her off and went in. I was in there for maybe 5 minutes came out and turned the key.

 

To my surprise all it did was crank, I'm like what the hell, so I tried it again and same results. I then proceeded to shut everything off to save the battery just in case. I then tried to start it again and still all it did was crank. I could hear the fuel pump kick on when I first turned it on and the cranking didn't sound labored or problematic.

 

So I went through the checklist (Fuel, Spark etc...). While I was doing that I just let it sit key out because maybe the system was overloaded or something  so I waited for it to reset (I think it is 5 minutes).

 

After that I tried to start it again and still all it would do was crank. Now it was getting serious, so I popped the hood and proceeded to look for loose wires or leaking fuel etc, etc.... Nothing! I took off the plastic cover on the manifold to look at the fuel injectors and they looked fine, I mean what is going on, there were no signs of anything wrong.

 

In the meantime the wind started to pick up and snow flurries were plastering me in the face. There were several people at the post office and not one person even bothered to ask if I needed help; all they did was look and stare :huh:  What has this world come to

 

It has now been 30 minutes with no ideas what is going on, So I thought what the hell I might as well try starting it again. And to my surprise it started right up just like it was new and purred like a kitten. :S :huh: :exclamation:

 

Does anyone have a clue what happened did I not wait long enough for the system to reset and what would cause the system to have a fault??? I hope she isn't becoming undependable because I can't afford to have these problems right now.

 

I know it is difficult to diagnose something online but maybe someone would have some ideas.

Thank You

 

Scott

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Sorry to hear you were having problems in the cold.

 

 

So I went through the checklist (Fuel, Spark etc...).

 

Could you elaborate a little on what you did to test for fuel and spark and the results you got? While the engine won't start is the best time to do the testing. It's hard to troubleshoot the reason an engine won't start when it's running.

 

How old is the ICM? Any gray goo on the outside of it?

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my car did the same thing. I never would not start, but would quit running after 2-3 minutes of driving. I always managed to get to the side of the road, wait a few minutes and then it would re-start. installing a new ICM fixed that.

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Could you elaborate a little on what you did to test for fuel and spark and the results you got?

 

 

Oh Sorry I was a little confusing what I meant was I was going through the process in my mind while I was sitting in the car looking at the bad weather outside.

 

Yeah I am frustrated now because the car is working fine...starts right up every time.

 

I checked the ICM and it looks fine on the outside, but I plan on taking it off just to make sure and to rule that out as a possible cause.

 

When it was just cranking it was almost like a main coil wire came unplugged (on a car with a distributor) I had that happen to me on one of my cars and recognized the sound - No Spark.

 

I have it in the garage right now doing a double check of things hopefully I can narrow it down - right now I am still at a loss.

 

If I have anything to report I will submit it as soon as I can.

 

Thanks


my car did the same thing. I never would not start, but would quit running after 2-3 minutes of driving. I always managed to get to the side of the road, wait a few minutes and then it would re-start. installing a new ICM fixed that.

 

 

 

 

Until I remove the ICM I am thinking that is the culprit at least that is my hope. If that is not it then I don't know what I will do other than using it as a parts car or selling it.

 

It does have 188,000 miles on her and the tranny is starting to slip but the motor is still running strong.

 

Thanks

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I'd say it's probasbly the ICM. I went through your scenario 2 different times. Once the ICM would heat up it would short out until it cooled off then it would start right back up.

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Mine did the same thing - failed to start at my parent's, then started up for the tow truck driver the next morning and ever since. I went ahead and replaced all three relays and the ignition pack, and have had no issues since. The ignition pack came from a self-serve junkyard for $33. Relays were $7 each from eBay. The car had never had a problem before, and I've driven it close to 1500 miles since without a hiccup.

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Crank Sensors can do the same thing. Been there and have the tee shirt. Happened to me at my sons wedding. Started right up when the tow truck arrived. Makes for a memorable event.

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Thanks everyone!

 

So is there an ICM preference on which one or year to get, I've read some posts where they put a 95 year one in and it seemed to work better, what do you think?

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This sounds like a failing ICM to me as well. This is often a thermal problem, it will fail to start when hot but will start fine again after cooling off. If your car is an 88-90 it will have had the Magnavox ignition setup from the factory (with rectangular coil packs). 91 had the later design Delco ignition with a different ICM and three separately serviceable coil packs (these are more or less round versus rectangular). Now, some 88-90 have been converted to Delco, but presumably yours still has the Magnavox setup.

 

Thermal failure of the Magnavox ICM is very common as the module has an internal potting compound to disperse heat and shield the electronics from moisture ingress. This compound eventually breaks down, and since the ICM is mounted at an angle, the potting material oozes out the harness end of the module making a big sticky mess that is difficult to clean up. This also leaves the module susceptible to overheating, which is why it will fail when hot and then work on again when cold.

 

I heavily recommend converting to the Delco setup unless you absolutely have to be stock for judging at shows. Easiest to get the setup off a 91 or later 3800 equipped car at a yard (many models by Buick, Pontiac and Olds) if you can find a working one complete. You will need the coils, 6 coil pack bolts, ICM, aluminum mounting adapter bracket and three special square head bolts to mount the adapter bracket to the mount location in the engine bay. The Magnavox does not use this bracket as the three mounting studs are integral to the ICM, and the coil packs mount with different screws than the Delco version. You should also re-gap the plugs to the spec for Delco ignition as it is a bit different than the Magnavox. That said, it should still work even without changing the spark plug gap.

 

I've converted my 88 Reattas (presently three in the stable) and have been quite pleased with the reliability. All three had Magnavox at the time I purchased them and all three failed in short order. While the Delco can and does fail also, they seem to be more robust and I've yet to to see one exhibit the "fail at hot" symptom that is so common on the Magnavox units. Typically failures on the Delco are just poor/rough running of what feels like harsh shifts from the transmission.

 

Kevin

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Thanks everyone!

 

So is there an ICM preference on which one or year to get, I've read some posts where they put a 95 year one in and it seemed to work better, what do you think?

 

This page will tell you everything you need to know.  Look for a Delco ICM on anything after 1992 with a 3800 engine that has the same connector as shown in the photo below. I printed the photo of the connector and took it to the junk yard for reference when I went to get my Delco ICM. You need to get the complete module with three individual coils mounted on top as shown below.

ICM_connector_pinout1988-90.jpg.0da8ecbf3bd16a3d7fbaf43c294644de.jpg

SAM_0559.thumb.JPG.73975f70f21e968d510640925ee4d310.JPG

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I am pretty sure the coil assembly from the 3300 in the smaller Century's, et al. will work but the ICM itself will not. The 3300 is the 3800's little brother but it used batch fire injectors and has no cam sensor.

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So I am getting ready to find a good ICM but I am a little confused. From the tutorial it says

 

"The first two are available from most parts houses but expensive(The module and coils). The rest you are expected to already have so is best to start in a junkyard"

 

Is Padgett referring to the 6 bolts for the coils or the mounting plate and three bolts OR all of those?

 

coilpart.jpg

I haven't taken mine off yet since I am still driving it, so I'm not sure what I need to get from the junk yard - Do I need a mounting plate or is the one on there compatible with the newer module.

 

Sorry I am sick with a head cold and my brain is tired and can't seem to get things straight.

 

Thanks for all your help

Scott


Also I found this online for $55, what do you think...Too much?

 

307x230http://i.ebayimg.com/images/g/A9UAAOSwnHZYc%7Ed9/s-l1600.jpg[/img]307x230http://i.ebayimg.com/images/g/i2MAAOSwEzxYc%7Ed2/s-l1600.jpg[/img]

From a 04 Pontiac Grand Am

Comes with all you see but no mounting plate and bolts.

It says they are thoroughly bench tested and was pulled from a running motor.

Module PN: 1103946 3J09

Alernate OEM Module PN's: 10494014, 12617924, 19245558

AC Delco replacement module PN D1977A

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Here is what I remember doing when I went to the salvage yard to get my Delco ignition for my '88.  It has  been a while so maybe someone will have something to add.

 

  1. Remove the ICM electrical connector. I think it takes a 7mm wrench.
  2. Remove the spark plug wires.The coils should be numbered but take note of how the wires go.
  3. Remove the three nuts on the bottom of the mounting bracket shown in the photo below.
  4. Get the whole thing as a unit. No need to remove any of the small screws that hold the coils to the ICM.
  5. Clean the mounting plate on your car.
  6. Mount the Delco unit to your mounting plate and connect the wires. Some people only use the two nuts that are easy to get to.

Be careful not to mix up the spark plug wires. It is easy to do. You will have to route the wires a little different for the Delco ICM.

SAM_0558-2.thumb.JPG.eddcbfdb3415c54274c482ff9868d8ba.JPG

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Thanks Ronnie that will help me a lot, the only thing I am dreading is there will be at least 14" of snow on the ground, hopefully other people have trampled it down enough that I won't have to go through it to get to a car.

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Hiya, Scott!

 

You need the mounting plate from a 1991-1995 GM 3800. The best route is to pick up the entire ignition module assembly from a salvage yard. I got the package for $33 and was able to pick and choose pieces. The coils are available all three for $25 on eBay with free shipping from a number of vendors. To make the change you need the mounting plate, ignition module, the three coils, and hardware.

 

There is an excellent and very detailed guide on how to do the ignition swap on the ROJ forum 'How To' guides: http://www.reattaowner.com/roj/repair-information/common-problems-a-solutions/replacing-magnavox-ignition-with-delco

 

It lists all the parts and how to make the switch. It is very easy.

 

Bob

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Hold up.

I'm betting it's the crankshaft position sensor. EXACTLY the same issue I had about a month ago, posted on the Reatta list.

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Hold up.

I'm betting it's the crankshaft position sensor. EXACTLY the same issue I had about a month ago, posted on the Reatta list.

 

Thanks Harry, I haven't tore into things quite yet and so I will look at both the ICM and the crankshaft sensor. Thank You for your input, I want to make sure this car is back on the road and trustworthy.

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I have some more details!

 

When I go to start it now it will crank for about 3 seconds and then chug and run, kinda like a carbureted engine. Does that sound like an ICM issue or the crank sensor? Or something else.

 

When I am driving it there seems to be less power and it almost feels like the RPM's will drop out when I am cruising about 40; like it loses power for just a second.

 

I took off the ICM and looked at it carefully (without tearing it completely apart) and there are no signs of GOO. Is there a bench test with a multi meter?

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Sorry nevermind about the testing of the ICM and such I found the tutorial - duh!!!

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