My '89 Reatta is still running rough!

[Philbo]

24 minutes ago, Padgett said:

re Service manual: Final Edition is fat, Preliminary Edition is slender and just has the changes from the previous year.

 

Never noticed a change to the owner's manual.

Ah before I bought '90 FSM I had something called a "new product manual" or something like that, which described itself as just the changes from previous model. Maybe they changed the terminology with the '90 model?

Edited April 1, 2021 by Philbo

[Padgett]

Preliminary Edition or New Product manual are the same thing. Just those things that changed from the previous year's "final" and are intended to be used together.

[fun car guy]

On 3/31/2021 at 9:02 AM, ship said:

I don't recall the 90 and 91 Riviera/Reatta FSMs' having any final edition.  I thought only the 88 had a final, and possibly the 89(?).

The manual I just got is clearly marked "final edition".  It's grey with drawings of the Reatta and the Rivera in white, quite thick so I intend to study it and become familiar with it.

[fun car guy]

On 3/30/2021 at 1:34 PM, fun car guy said:

Once again, thanks Ronnie.  I guess I should follow your advice, take the alternator out and have it tested.  Not the first time I've had to pay for my mistakes. Better safe than sorry!

Can't thank you enough, Ronnie.  When I took the old one to Advance they tested it and found it was shorted out.  If you hadn't warned me, I could have done a lot more damage.  As it is now, I'm going to mend the positive connection with one I ordered from Jim.  Then install the new alternator and hook up the new battery.  With any luck, everything will come back on and I can proceed with finding the cause of rough running but at the least, I may have lost all previous diagnosis info.

[Ronnie]

I'm more than happy to help. It sounds like you are on the right path. I hope the alternator is the only thing that was damaged.

[fun car guy]

Yes, I hope so too!  This experience has caused me lost sleep however, if the short didn't stop with the alternator, the main fuses should have blown, don't you think?

[Ronnie]

Yes, but the computers ECM, BCM and the electronics for the touch screen are pretty sensitive. I would think the fuses should blow before any damage was done but who knows? I've never known of anyone hooking up a battery backwards on a Reatta before. Anytime you see smoke and sparks flying anything could happen to sensitive electronic parts. You will just have to install the new alternator, repair the cables and go from there.

[Padgett]

Used to reverse all the diodes and run a 10DN in Jaguars.

[fun car guy]

On 4/3/2021 at 10:51 PM, Ronnie said:

Yes, but the computers ECM, BCM and the electronics for the touch screen are pretty sensitive. I would think the fuses should blow before any damage was done but who knows? I've never known of anyone hooking up a battery backwards on a Reatta before. Anytime you see smoke and sparks flying anything could happen to sensitive electronic parts. You will just have to install the new alternator, repair the cables and go from there.

Actually there were no sparks, just a sizzling sound and a few whisps of smoke from the alternator, nothing more and quickly disconnected the battery.  Also, have checked all the circuit breakers and they're all good, now on to all the accessory fuses and getting a good look at the fusable links. Trying to stop beating myself up and think of this in a hopeful light. 

[Ronnie]

On 3/22/2021 at 4:48 PM, fun car guy said:

Having no luck at all!  Bought a brand new battery, tried to hook it up and got fireworks, hissing and whisps of smoke from the alternator, hope I haven't fried things! 

Sometimes my memory is too good and it turns me into a Debbie-Downer. ?  When I remembered you writing about getting fireworks from the alternator when you hooked up the battery I was seeing visions of a shower of sparks.

 

Don't beat yourself up. I've done a lot worse than that and I've been a mechanic all my life. Some of it cost me a lot more money to. We all make mistakes.

[fun car guy]

Thanks Ronnie, you're very kind.  Unlike yourself, I don't have nearly as much experience a mechanic but I still should have known what I was doing.  I have quite a bit to do around the house tomorrow but will check all the other fuses on Wednesday, weather permitting.  Once the replacement positive terminal arrives from Jim I'll install it and, cringing with crossed fingers, connect the battery and let you know what happens (or doesn't happen.)  Regardless of the outcome, I'm committed to seeing this through.  

Again, many thanks, you've made be feel  little better.

[Philbo]

Yeah I've done similar things too. Really the only bad mistake is the one that you don't learn from. I once made a dumb mistake during a head gasket job that caused me to have to almost start from the beginning. I admire your determination.  You'll get it and come out the other end a better mechanic.

[fun car guy]

Headlights repaired thanks again, now on to the engine.   

Spoke to a very nice guy at East Coast Reatta, who took me through the ECM codes and there were only two. The first was EO44 or lean exhaust and the second, E047 communication between the BCM and the ECM - A/C clutch and cruise.  Of course like most Reattas, my car doesn't have A/C anymore so that's obvious but a little concerned about cruise.  

The important thing then is the lean exhaust which could mean several issues since this car sat idle outdoors for two years before I bought it.  The guy at East Coast painted a dark picture of rust in the fuel system from condensation and possible clogged injectors.  He also said coils routinely go bad in these engines after 80,000 or so and since I find no receipt of new coils having been replaced, I'm hoping for that.  I have a repair receipt from a local shop where the previous owner had the injectors replaced to the tune of $575.00 in August of 2018 (no mileage shown) but I think it's safe to say that was shortly before my car went into hibernation as it's currently showing 160,000 miles. 

Bare in mind that the car readily starts, does not backfire and shows about 1/4 full.  As always, all suggestions born of experience are greatly appreciated.

[Ronnie]

36 minutes ago, fun car guy said:

Spoke to a very nice guy at East Coast Reatta, who took me through the ECM codes and there were only two. The first was EO44 or lean exhaust and the second, E047 communication between the BCM and the ECM - A/C clutch and cruise.  Of course like most Reattas, my car doesn't have A/C anymore so that's obvious but a little concerned about cruise.  

The important thing then is the lean exhaust which could mean several issues since this car sat idle outdoors for two years before I bought it.  The guy at East Coast painted a dark picture of rust in the fuel system from condensation and possible clogged injectors.  He also said coils routinely go bad in these engines after 80,000 or so

Sounds like you got some good advice. If you talked to Marck you probably don't need us. He is a Reatta expert.

[fun car guy]

I don't know his name but although I knew their prices were high I only asked for their price for coils as all the ones I've seen online don't look the same.  I was not looking for advice as I know I can always get dependable info. here. Whoever he was he was just trying to be helpful with appreciated but unsolicited advice and I got the impression it's been a slow day there.  Never doubt your value to me!

[2seater]

I know we have been on this subject for a long time in more than one thread, not a complaint, just an observation. It is easy to lose track of what has been tried and/or suggested along the way, as well as bits of information that may be relevant not mentioned, The possibilities mentioned by East Coast Reatta's are certainly accurate but it seems as these threads have covered some of those items already??

 

Some questions/comments:

- The fuel level is mentioned as 1/4 tank. Was it received with only a 1/4 tank and perhaps stored that way or has it had a fill of fresh fuel along the way and that is simply the indicated level now?

- Has the fuel pressure been checked with a gauge and if so, what was the result? 

- Some time ago it was suggested to check for possible injector issues by using diagnostic overrides to turn the individual injectors on and off with the engine running to help with determining if there is a cylinder balance issue. That may also uncover lack of spark in a cylinder as well or at least narrow the problem areas.

- There are four distinct items related to fueling that can be investigated through diagnostics from the comfort of the drivers seat with the engine warmed up and holding the throttle around 1000 rpm to keep the O2 sensor hot:

   ED07- O2 sensor voltage.  It should dance around from below about .5v to above same. It should not indicate a static number for any length of time, 

   ED18- O2 sensor cross counts. This is simply the number of times the O2 sensor crosses from rich to lean. More is better in this case, high single digit or teens 

   ED19- Fuel integrator. This is the short term fuel adjustment from the ECM. The target value is 128 and generally will circle around this number if everything is working as it should.

   ED20- Block Learn Multiplier. This is the long term adjustment that occurs as the ECM tries to get the short term value listed above to the target number. The central number here is 128 again, which is the center of the 0-255 total theoretical range. If the number is above 128, the ECM is adding fuel to correct a lean condition, conversely below is trying to lean things out. 

 

This isn't a perfect tool set, as a misfire can indicate lean fueling too, but they will give an idea if the overall system is operating around the normal parameters or trying to correct for a fault.

 

[Padgett]

My AC works fine. Would not have a car the AC didn't work (reading 93F on patio this afternoon).

[fun car guy]

4 hours ago, 2seater said:

I know we have been on this subject for a long time in more than one thread, not a complaint, just an observation. It is easy to lose track of what has been tried and/or suggested along the way, as well as bits of information that may be relevant not mentioned, The possibilities mentioned by East Coast Reatta's are certainly accurate but it seems as these threads have covered some of those items already??

 

Some questions/comments:

- The fuel level is mentioned as 1/4 tank. Was it received with only a 1/4 tank and perhaps stored that way or has it had a fill of fresh fuel along the way and that is simply the indicated level now?

- Has the fuel pressure been checked with a gauge and if so, what was the result? 

- Some time ago it was suggested to check for possible injector issues by using diagnostic overrides to turn the individual injectors on and off with the engine running to help with determining if there is a cylinder balance issue. That may also uncover lack of spark in a cylinder as well or at least narrow the problem areas.

- There are four distinct items related to fueling that can be investigated through diagnostics from the comfort of the drivers seat with the engine warmed up and holding the throttle around 1000 rpm to keep the O2 sensor hot:

   ED07- O2 sensor voltage.  It should dance around from below about .5v to above same. It should not indicate a static number for any length of time, 

   ED18- O2 sensor cross counts. This is simply the number of times the O2 sensor crosses from rich to lean. More is better in this case, high single digit or teens 

   ED19- Fuel integrator. This is the short term fuel adjustment from the ECM. The target value is 128 and generally will circle around this number if everything is working as it should.

   ED20- Block Learn Multiplier. This is the long term adjustment that occurs as the ECM tries to get the short term value listed above to the target number. The central number here is 128 again, which is the center of the 0-255 total theoretical range. If the number is above 128, the ECM is adding fuel to correct a lean condition, conversely below is trying to lean things out. 

 

This isn't a perfect tool set, as a misfire can indicate lean fueling too, but they will give an idea if the overall system is operating around the normal parameters or trying to correct for a fault.

 

In answer to your question, the tank was about half full when I got the car but I know the gas cap was secured so the system should be okay, just old gas perhaps?  Maybe something as simple as draining the tank and refilling with fresh and a new fuel filter would help? I did put a bottle of dry gas in the tank a while ago, thinking of possible moisture. 

I haven't tried to measure the fuel pressure but will look into borrowing a gauge and hopefully figuring out how to use it, something I've never done before.

As to the four codes you describe, I've never figured out how to access this info but will try to find them and report back.  I only two I found the two E codes before it went to stored B codes.

As to spark, I tried to find any injectors possibly malfunctioning and with the engine running, pulling each plug wire from it's coil to see if it made a difference.  As I recall two made no difference when pulled but I eventually got tired of being shocked and stopped, I can assure you there's plenty of spark!  More likely a couple of bad injectors (clogged?)  when I placed a large screw driver to each and listened, they all make the same rapid clicking sound.  East Coast suggested some might be clogged but I have a receipt showing them all having been replaced August first, 2018 at about 145,000 miles to the tune of $575.00 (current mileage at approx. 160,100.)  The car had sat for two years.

I hope my contacting East Coast didn't offend anyone.  I was just speculating as to coils being one possibility, looking to find replacement coils similar to original equipment.

Thanks, 2 seater.

 

[2seater]

East Coast Reattas is certainly an authority on Reatta's and a good source for parts, so no reason to take offence I know of. One hurdle has been conquered and there are likely more to go. It may be painful but educational. The reason I mentioned previous posts and answers is my memory says we are covering some of the same ground?

 

The items I mentioned are not codes but are identifiers of the items in the live data screen. The onboard diagnostic capabilities are probably one of the best and most useful parts of the Reatta and should be a primary focus to learn to use it and be comfortable with it. It isn't perfect since it uses computing power several generations old, but what it does do, it does well. It isn't just for reading codes, it provides live data that can be accessed at any time. Just the four items I suggested will give an idea of the overall fueling the ECM is seeing. Further along, learning the overrides will allow the injectors to be turned on and off, individually to judge the effect. The purpose is to narrow the search area.

 

It sounds unfortunate the car was stored outside without at least a full tank of fuel, so rust is a possibility, but if it starts, runs and the only complaint is rough running, it shouldn't have a fatal defect. Don't focus on any one area based on an assumption, investigate. If you want a fun light show, as well as useful information relative to the quality of the ignition, buy a half dozen of those inexpensive spark test gadgets, the ones that go inline with the spark plug wires at the coils. Start the car and it will be evident if there is a defect in the ignition under the garage conditions. One word of caution if you do this. If a weak spark is indicated on a particular cylinder, trade the spark tester with another cylinder just to be sure it isn't the tester itself.

[Ronnie]

2 hours ago, fun car guy said:

I hope my contacting East Coast didn't offend anyone.  I was just speculating as to coils being one possibility, looking to find replacement coils similar to original equipment.

I wasn't offended when you said you contacted East Coast Reatta. I was serious about Marck at East Coast Reatta being an expert on Reattas. Reattas is his only business. I've said several times that I don't consider myself an expert on Reattas.  I've been lucky enough to be surrounded by Dave, 2seater, Padgett and others who have taught me a lot about Reattas and helped me collect the information you find here on ROJ.