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2seater

Does anyone remember the German Reatta guy?

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I post this as I don't even have a clue as to the owners screen name. He did extensive work on his Teves pump and associated hardware. I remember his handle was unusual and didn't have a German or Reatta connection. After I worked with Daves89 yesterday I decided to go through my collection and I discovered a spare pump/motor with switch and thought that should be tested too. I cannot get it to prime, no matter what I do. I have disassembled it multiple times and it spins freely but there are a couple of access points I can't get into and I remember he did a complete teardown, removing the pump gears etc... I could use a little help finding his posts.🙄

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I think his name was Henning. He went by the username Aztec62. He made a lot of useful posts about the Teves system.

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4 hours ago, Ronnie said:

I think his name was Henning. He went by the username Aztec62. He made a lot of useful posts about the Teves system.

Spot on! I wish I had the recall of details like that, but I have access to someone that does, which is even better🙃 I do remember the content and it was a very peculiar theory put forward but I am not so sure now. Thank you.

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Darn it, wouldn't ya know. I read through the whole thread from August of 2017, Teves won't build pressure, and on page five, about in the middle of the page is a statement he found a way to dismantle the pump with reference to a photo, but no detail or photo? All the other photos are fine in the entire thread so maybe the one I am looking for was never posted? I was sure he had figured out what the non-pumping problem was, and had fixed it, but that one critical piece is missing.🤨

 

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Send him a PM and it will go to his e mail address. Hopefully the address is still active and he responds.

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48 minutes ago, 2seater said:

I read through the whole thread from August of 2017, Teves won't build pressure, and on page five, about in the middle of the page is a statement he found a way to dismantle the pump with reference to a photo, but no detail or photo?

Hal, this is a photo that he posted that matches the date he made the post you refer to with the missing photo. I don't know why it is missing from the post but it seems to be the one that goes there.  I hope you can make more sense of what he is showing in the  photo than I can. 

 

I have access to other photos of the pump disassembled that he posted. If you think they will help you let me know and I will post them.

 

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I have a vague recollection that he tipped the plate somehow, maybe with the punch, so it could be hooked out of the housing. There is a filter screen that is compressed between the motor and plate to hold it in place when assembled so I suspect the stake marks evident are only to retain before assembly? Funny the text and photos of the one critical item are missing?

 

I will send a PM also and thanks for the suggestion Dave.

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Hmm, no email listed so I sent a pm if he still checks in.

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I looked him up and he hasn't been to this site in 3 years. However by sending him a PM it automatically uploads to his e mail address telling him he has a message. That is if his email address is still current.

 Another person to try is Jim Finn. he would probably have some ideas. Shoot him an e mail.

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Uhh, never mind🤢 After looking at the photo Ronnie posted, I tried what I mentioned in the previous post. Tap the perimeter of the cover plate over the pump to break any sort of bond with the pump body, hook the tip of a something like a center punch or awl under the edge of the opening into the pump and lever it up using the pump body as a fulcrum. Took a few tries but once free it comes apart easily. The balls (here we are again) are indeed stuck in their bores, but hopefully will be straightforward from here.

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47 minutes ago, 2seater said:

I tried what I mentioned in the previous post.

Glad you figured it out. Take some photos of how you got it apart for future reference. 

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1 hour ago, DAVES89 said:

I looked him up and he hasn't been to this site in 3 years. However by sending him a PM it automatically uploads to his e mail address telling him he has a message. That is if his email address is still current.

His email address is no longer valid. I got a notice this morning that the email sent out to him via the forums PM system had bounced.

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Okay, thanks guys. I haven't figured out how to get the small balls out of the rotor as of yet, so may need to just set this aside for the time being as have other things to do. I may try swapping the rotor assembly, which is the rotor, balls and an outer race, with parts from the castoff '88 pump body. That was my experimental one and it is all freely moving internally.

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Just a quick update and I am going to shelve this project for now: I dropped the entire rotating assembly from another pump into this one that will not prime and it made no difference at all. All of the swapped parts are clean, move freely and the passages are clear. I imagine the restriction to be on the inlet side but it is baffling why there is no indication of pressurizing? Approx. one ounce of fluid flows into the pump by tilting and turning the pump inlet upwards, and it sure appears to be completely flooded upon careful disassembly, but the pump spins easily with no indication of load on the motor.

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Of course this has been rattling around in my head and just now I had another look at that nice cutaway circuit view of the Teves pump. For whatever reason, when I saw the arrow for piston in the diagram, I imagined the ball bearing on the end did that duty, but of course it is actually a two piece assembly, the piston and the ball bearing that drives it🤢 I am sure the actual piston in the non-functioning pumps are stuck, even though the ball bearing is not. From the photo, it is easy to see one of the ball bearings is still stuck to the piston and I don't know of any solvent that would have cured this situation, only manual dirt and rust removal will suffice. No guarantee this will cure this one, but I would bet on it. The mechanism is similar to a hydraulic valve lifter, no biggie, just needs to be cleaned. I am sure the rust is not from nice clean brake fluid but from lots of water and lack of protection. That crusty pump housing is the donor '88 model which has served well.

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I'm still trying to get it in my head how the pump works. I guess I would have to see it for myself. From what I see I imagine there is an eccentric pushing the piston but I don't see how it returns without a spring. I'm sure I would understand it if I take one apart but I really don't want to have to do that. I'm happy just knowing mine is working the way it is supposed to. I hope that continues for a long time. 🙂

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10 hours ago, Ronnie said:

I'm still trying to get it in my head how the pump works. I guess I would have to see it for myself. From what I see I imagine there is an eccentric pushing the piston but I don't see how it returns without a spring. I'm sure I would understand it if I take one apart but I really don't want to have to do that. I'm happy just knowing mine is working the way it is supposed to. I hope that continues for a long time. 🙂

The ring looks just like an outer race for a ball bearing and is completely round. The rotor with the two small pistons is also round but the shaft visible inside the pump housing is off center relative to the outer race. The only thing that powers the pistons outwards against the race is centripetal force from the speed of rotation. Because of the off center rotor, the clearance to the race is variable and the pistons alternate moving in and out. The one area difficult to access is what they call the control shaft, which is the central shaft the rotor spins on and apparently has two internal passageways. There are definitely two openings which are slots, on the sides of the shaft that line up with the axis of the pistons, so the fluid in and out of the pump is through the central shaft and there is no direct access to it for cleaning. The only thing that controls the inlet vs output from the pump is the close tolerance on that central control shaft, no moving parts.

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Thanks. I think I get it now. The pump depending on centrifugal force to return the piston by forcing it against the ring is a good reason to flush the brake fluid often to prevent the parts from corroding. Also, I think it would be wise to run the pump periodically if the car isn't being driven for an extended period to keep the parts moving smoothly.

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I just returned to this project and I somewhat destructively dismantled the "control shaft" area of the pump, which is the term used in the VW diagram. The photo of the pump interior with the shaft in place shows the inlet from the fluid reservoir which enters from the rear and exits into the main chamber at the top. Below the control shaft two openings are visible. The one to the left is the inlet to the suction side of the control shaft through a small intersecting passage drilled in the pump body. The opening below and right is a dead end with what looks like a very loose split pin installed and protruding above the surface. My guess as to function is to act as an anti-swirl baffle to keep the fluid from simply going in circles following the rotor?

 

The two photos of the actual shaft show the inlet and outlet sides. The shaft is a press fit in the pump housing and is sealed with a metal plug at the rear. The pressed in end, toward the right in the photos, has the inlet and outlet openings which line up with the holes in the pump body. Not shown is the pressed in end of the shaft with has two approx. .050" parallel drilled passages that extend the length of the shaft to the level of the openings that line up with the rotor. The drilled passages are sealed with steel balls driven in to reseal the openings at the bottom of the shaft. The discharge side of the shaft has the discharge hole into the casting on the right end as viewed and the inlet from the discharge side of the rotor visible inside the notch in the side of the shaft. The inlet side of the shaft is more intricate. The openings are somewhat larger but there are also two very tiny drilled passages to the right and left of the rotor inlet notch, inside their own shallow notches, and the passages cross over to the discharge passageway. My best guess is they provide pressurized fluid to the rapidly spinning rotor for cooling and lubrication. I can add more photos if desired.

 

I don't see any way for the pump to self prime with the intricate passages, close tolerances and small sizes of the openings. Brake fluid is relatively viscous and small bubbles are easily trapped. I still haven't figured out why the pump doesn't do anything yet, but at least I know what the specific fluid flow path is. The diagram is excellent but seeing the real thing is even better🙄

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As a machinist I'm in awe of the machine work that went into those pumps.  It would have been possible to make a much simpler pump but I guess the reason they are made the way they are is to have a high pressure pump that can be powered by a small 12 volt motor in a very compact size.  Everything inside that pump seems to have really tight tolerances.  I'm wondering if priming the pump from a completely dry condition might require forcing fluid in through the inlet from the reservoir with something like a MitiVac set up to pressurize the fluid going in.  Or maybe you have to turn the pump slowly while forcing the fluid into the pump?

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